Schneier on Security: Experimental Results: Liars and Outliers Trust Offer

OK, OK, thanks for the reminder. I just posted a positive review on Amazon and shared it on Facebook. Maybe others will be reminded to do the same (-;

The book only reached me in late November.

Since "results are in" one could surmise that there is no further need to honor the original agreement..?

I'm still holding up my end of the bargain, I fall into the 'busier than expected' category, and haven't finished it yet. I liked what I have had time to read.

Alas, I've been deluged by work, and I'm halfway through. Some of us are just slow, I guess.
--Outlier?

I feel shamed now. I do not have an outlet to publish my review. No blog and my social media profiles are not public.

I'll post it here:
Liars and Outliers is an interesting read. It touches on security, sociology, and psychology. As a free standing read it was interesting and ok. I think this book would really benefit from being built into a college (or even high school) level course on sociology and psychology. Actually playing or acting out some of the scenarios would help clarify them.

I also found the notes format (with the notes at the end instead of as footnotes) extremely annoying. I read the notes and had to keep flipping. Publishers - stop doing this!

Its worth the Amazon price but not the cover price. It would be worth the cover price if it were paired with some interactive options (like some simulations of the hawk/dove game) or a classroom setting. Its hard to read and learn about interactions between people without interacting with people.

Hi,
apologize for the delay - I also set myself the deadline of the end of the year, but was busier than expected. It is still on my to-do list, not thrown away.

Bruce Schneier ... Do you believe that you received a positive return on your investment? Did the reviews sell more books? Did the feedback make you a better writer?

Are you here just doing a real life experiment to test the conclusions about social behavior that you have reached during the writing of "Liars and Outliers" ?

I had a feeling this whole thing was as much a test as it was pushing for getting reviews out there. Without going in to details, I'll just say I'm in the "way busier than expected" camp and haven't even had time to crack the cover. Soon. Probably.

I apologize, Bruce. Still planning on reviewing the book, just been busy with .. life.

Well, see, now the review I've been composing as I'm (slowly) reading has to be revised. I was already incorporating the effect that the deal had on my reading of it. That's not a bad thing, but it does change what I had in mind to write.

Some of these responses bring up something that I don't think the book covered -- unintentional defection. The book focuses on the *decision* to defect and how societies moderate that.

I will say for now that I'm disappointed in the lack of Ghandi. I believe I was promised Ghandi in this book back when it was being titled. (An unintentional defection on Bruce's part?)

I felt bad because it wasn't until late October that I was able to finish it and write a review. Now I know that makes me a top performer!

Oh, and Freiheit, I'm glad to see someone else make the point of endnotes vs. footnotes. That's one of my major annoyances with most research-related non-fiction.

There were some outliers. One person wrote to tell me that he didn't like the book, and offered not to publish a review despite the agreement [no comment]. Another two e-mailed me to offer to return the price difference (I declined) [my emphasis].

I'm more interested in whether you accepted the offer not to a publish a negative review.

the only thing inducing compliance was the morals of the reader

...and what about the morals of the author?

Eric Sink performed a similar exercise for his book "Version Control by Example". People were allowed a free copy. Later on an email was sent asking for a review without any cost. I didn't provide a review mainly because I don't have a great deal of authority in the area. I use svn at work and his book focused on his tool. That is all I could compare.

Wow. I feel terrible. And I didn't even get a copy of the book! (can I get one for free now?)

If it makes you feel better, the only books I have read in the past 5 years other than "Schneier on Security", "Beyond Fear", "Secrets and Lies", and a/an (insanely brief) review of "Practical Cryptography" (let's be frank, I didn't understand any of it other than the outside cover) was the Zombie Survival Guide by Max Brooks. His books are more interesting than yours, but yours are probably more useful... for now.

In the meantime, I still consider you to be the foremost expert on all things security, and really wish you had more authority on US security policies. I bet the book is great.

I have a copy, and am about 1/3 of the way through it. I decided to read it slowly and deliberately, and only when I am in the frame of mind to absorb it. (Hardcover books should be savored, I suppose.) I'm also reading each footnote in-line. This has taken far longer than expected, but you will get your review! If it counts, I have discussed the contents with several friends and co-workers...

I like the notes. It's info that Bruce thought wasn't essential, and I didn't feel I was "skimming" if I passed it up.

And I *really* like the copious references. I didn't read them all, but whenever something was stated and I thought, "Wait, is there a source on this", there invariably was. Eventually, I just trusted that everything was sources.

@Andrew Rose - "...and what about the morals of the author?"

Indeed, how much would a case of delayed shipping, for example, affect a readers' sense of obligation? Or perhaps a blog post soured someone on Mr Schneier and they felt defecting was justified.

If you're willing to offer that deal again.. I will take you up on it.. and make sure that you see a review.

I'm curious: What was your expected timeframe for the reviews to have taken place? Did you specify any such timeframe? (I did not find any in the original post linked above.)

I realize your intent of the offer was to sell more books. However, if you wanted people who took advantage of the offer to read and review it, say, before the end of the year, that should've been specified. It seems your frustration (if that's what you're expressing by this "reminder") is based not only on the terms of the agreement you specified, but on unspecified terms as well.

I took advantage of the offer, and I don't feel any shame at having not read or reviewed it yet. Of the 46 books I read in 2012, only 5 were published during year (and one of those was simply a newly released critical edition of something published two nearly hundred years ago). I rarely read brand-spanking-new books. I took advantage of the offer because 1) I want to read your book, 2) I intend to read your book, and 3) once I do, I will review it and provide a link to the review when I do, as specified in the offer.

But I'm chagrined that you seem to have expected me to do so in some ambiguous and unspecified timeframe. Your "trust" seems to be based on the whim of a specter.

I realize some will think I'm merely rationalizing my lack of having fulfilled the terms of the agreement yet. So be it. The agreement is what was agreed upon, not what one party later decides was the agreement based on unclear and unstated expectations.

I haven't finished reading it yet, but I have not forgotten that I owe you a review. I'm sorry for the delay!

Oops, must have missed that one. It was not mentioned in the blog post.

I took you up on the offer - mostly because I wanted a signed copy. I already bought and read the book when it was released, this was my second copy. I display it prominently in my office and have recommended it to my staff, co-workers and friends on many occasions.

Did I hold up my end of the deal? Apparently not, being a verbal advocate was not in the agreement. Buying two copies held no benefit to me personally.

So here is my review: As a long time security practitioner, I love the book. It's insightful and I recommend it to everyone in the field. Thank you.

There, now do we both feel better?

Add me to the "haven't had the time to finish" list.

@Curtis - good post, and I agree. At one point last year, I thought to myself, "Shoot, I haven't finished that book. Was there a deadline?" And I looked it up, and no there wasn't. Had there been, I'm confident I would have met it.

I suppose, though, that might have been closer to an institutional pressure -- something of a contract, even if not a formal one.

This may be another step in the experiment. Moral pressure alone was the first step. Now we have another level of moral pressure -- the eyeballs above the bagels. Bruce is watching, and he's telling others what you did, albeit anonymously. I plan to have my review posted before the reputational part of the experiment begins (posting names of the defectors (I'm being facetious; I don't think Bruce would do that)).

I remember another distribution offer where you asked people to give a copy to an opinion maker. ("on eBay. I can't stop that, but I will be cross if it happens")

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2011/12/...

Are there any observations from that side of the book's distribution?

My copy (bought) is not read yet.

I guess I am an outlier too, but I didn't reply to your email. I haven't finished the book, and I likely won't.

Each chapter introduces a few interesting points, but then each was repetitively hammered home. I would find myself skimming through the paragraphs just to find out "what's his next point".

If you prefer, I can certainly go add another 2-star review to Amazon and send you a link, but I don't think that's fair to you since I have not finished the book.

Great social experiment! And I immediately wandered how some kind of metaexperiment could be devised, to measure how such social experiments (including your so kindly mild shaming/reprimand) influence what I (probably inappropriately call) average level of conscience of the public. Yeah... rough task...

@Peter – You may be right. For my part, I'm not concerned with defining the type of pressure Bruce is using now, vs. what type he used previously. If it's an experiment, then he's got his data, so, yay for him.

My point is that if he had an up-front expectation, then it should've been stated. If I'm an "outlier," then what am I outlying from? Some date (or vague timeline...) that he had in his mind? How can there be any VALID pressure to enforce such an expectation, whether it be moral, institutional, or whatever?

(Maybe there's something in the book that will answer this for me. If so, let's all ponder the irony for a moment....)

For my part, the absence of a specified date is what made me feel okay with taking the offer in the first place, because I know that I'm the kind of guy who takes awhile to get around reading stuff. If he wanted a review by Dec. 31, 2012, I would've probably said to myself, "It's a nice thought, but I'll pass." I don't expect it to be years before I read and review it, but I knew it wouldn't be right away. If right away was expected, it should've been stated so....

Still reading it. I have no reliable mail service where I am, so only managed last month to pick it up from where I had it sent. I don't review books until I read them all the way through, but I have verbally recommended it to over a dozen people since starting it.

I do plan on posting a review in several different places online once I have finished it, to make up for the delay.

sorry, still haven't gotten past the first page.

I didn't take part in the offer but do intend buying and reading the book in future. If this was really a trust experiment, then surely it is fundamentally flawed by the lack of a specified deadline. I couldn't agree more with Curtis.

@Curtis - "If I'm an "outlier," then what am I outlying from?"

Yes, that is a key question. If this was an experiment from the outset, you're right. People were under moral pressure to do...what, exactly? There might be an implied deadline, since a review of a book isn't as useful a year after publication, but still, who's to say four months is unreasonable versus two months or six months?

I do realize that responding to you using terms from the book doesn't make sense when you say you haven't read it yet, but I'm also posting for Bruce and the general audience here.

Can I return the book somewhere for a refund? I never managed to get through it, so it's near mint condition.

I wonder if some of this is based on the amount of reading an author is likely to do, vs most other people. It astounds me that some people take weeks or months to finish a book, and it astounds those people that I read several books per week.

I suspect one of these may have been purchased by my wife for my birthday next month (unfortunately, I saw who a package was from). I intend to write a review on Amazon after I read it.

@sevesteen - I'm a painfully slow reader. I truly wish I wasn't. My nightstand stack threatens to fall over and crush me in my sleep, and it grows faster than I can deplete it. It also tends to act as a true stack -- first in, last out. New, impulse reads tend to trump older things, and even current reads (this is partly what happened with Liars & Outliers when a high-demand book I had reserved at the library became available. Dilemma: lose my spot on the list or delay (not defect -- no agreed-upon deadline remember?)

Should have guessed this would be a social experiment. It took me until the new year to get to the book in my queue, but I'm happy to write a review now after reading part 1. Or I can wait until finishing it as I originally planned.

I must admit that I fall into the 91% category of not holding up on the agreement. I simply haven't had the chance to make it though the book yet. It's been sitting on my nightstand since getting it, but hasn't moved much yet.

With no agreed deadline to publishing a review, I don't necessarily feel that I haven't held up my end of the bargin. I still plan on reading it and writing a review when completed. Until that changes, I would simply say that it's and incomplete exchange and not a breaking of the agreement.

Just recently started it, and I admit, it was slow going at the start. It will probably be a while before I get it finished…

I am one of those people who was given a copy of the book and who has not yet written a review or even responded. I'll try to avoid excuses and just describe my situation as one case study.

I received the book with the absolute intention of writing a review. I started reading it and am about half-way through. It has been a very close reading (I have notes scribbled in the margin on nearly every page). However, I have spent very little time reading it -- that's why I'm only about half-way through.

Observing my own mental state, I was excited about the project at first, but then as a good deal of time went by without my posting a review, I started to feel guilty about it. I decided that I would set myself a deadline of the end of the year (2012), and that if I had not finished the book and written the review by then, that I would write to Bruce and apologize, then offer to purchase a copy of the book to donate it to a library. I note that it is now 11 days into the new year and I have still not written this note.

I observe that my guilt levels have not really risen since reading this posting from Bruce. Instead, I mostly find it ammusing. I an re-invigorating my good intentions to finish the book and write the review. We'll see whether that happens or not.

Mind publishing a histogram of response latencies? I'm interested in seeing how long it takes people to get the book read.

I think for the second edition of the book you could write a whole chapter on how this blog post was responded to!

I'm about a third of the way through it myself.

It's a very dense read, and quite thought provoking.

"No. I would not do that. That's way out of proportion."

Whew!

Seriously, I never for a second thought you would do something that's against everything you stand for.

Still, it's an interesting thought experiment in the context of the book. It's something you (or, if you prefer, a hypothetical different author offering a similar deal) *could* do -- or threaten to do -- as a reputational pressure. However, there's a reflective reputational pressure back on the author. If one deals harshly with defectors in one's dealings, others may decline to participate in future deals. Even if the author is seen as in the right, it hurts him to be, as you say, "out of proportion".

See, I did read and absorb. I'm in the final section and already had plans to finish it this weekend.

Hey Bruce,

I'm one of the sample of people who have not finished reading the book and I will definitely post my review once I have.

So far, at about 1/2 way through the actual content, the book is completely fascinating. I have already referred to its contents in multiple conversations.

I'm an avid but slow reader and I am easily distracted. I have jumped around from book-to-book quite a bit and haven't made it back to this one in a while. I'll make it a point to get back to this book again tonight.

My discounted L&O copy, along with some other materials, went missing during a trip I took back in October.

Be assured I will order a replacement and complete my side of the bargain.

I bet the delay between the deal and the book arriving affected the response rate. In my case, I planned to read the book on an upcoming vacation, but it didn’t arrive until after the vacation. I haven't been able to start it yet.

I am on the 4th chapter of the book. I will post a review when I finish. I had hoped I would finish it sooner but life happens.

Of course, as the days go by the value of the review may diminish. I do feel as if I should pay the difference.

The biggest learning from this experiment may be to set a deadline in order to create a sense of urgency.

Eh. And I still have to finish mine. :

Everybody likes cheap books. But to write a review? Too much trouble. To keep gentleman agreement? Too much trouble.

Bruce, don't apologize. Nobody was forced to accept your great offer. You fulfilled your promise so should they.

Speaking for myself (who did not take advantage of this), I get contacted by PR folks on a fairly regular basis wondering if I'd like a review copy of a book. I only say yes if I have good intentions of reading and reviewing it on my blog--in practice, I confess, I have just a middling track record in holding up my end of the bargain. I don't really feel guilty about it though because I know lots of book review copies go out with the full expectation that only some will end up reviewed. Arguably a somewhat different situation, but at least related.

Guy Kawasaki discusses the review-copy issue extensively in his book Author, Publisher, Entrepreneur; he thinks the review copy thing is essential, though he also doesn't advocate doing it in quite the public way you do.

After your first book giveaway caused a riot at the 2012 RSA Conference what made you expect a better result this time around ;-)

I actually posted an extremely short review – on Twitter. Weirdest format ever. And I never even suspected, as I should have, that I was the subject of an experiment!

Hey, whats the percentage of submitted reviews per country?

Now that's actually one of the more interesting available statistics available (except for that latencies thing, which also could be per country).

And regarding my own review: I'm on page 49 in the book. The review has been started. I'll post it when I feel it's done.

Oddly, I actually was just thinking about this earlier today; I've had various personal commitments and such arise since I got the book and haven't even had the time to open it yet, but I do - and always did - fully intend to post a review once I read it...

I wanted a cheap copy, but didn't request one because I know that I'll only review a book if I feel I have something worthwhile to say. I didn't want to feel obligated to post some bland "hey, this book is really good" somewhere.

If defectors from this kind of scheme ever became a genuine problem (rather than an interesting side-show) I'd say an obvious solution would be to sell at full price and give a rebate if you publish a review. Though I guess that creates a perverse incentive for people who don't like it - and therefore value it less - to be disproportionately keen to get the rebate.

I'm a dreaded late reviewer too, scuppered by busy life and a desire to think before opening my opinions.

I'm one of those, although my reason for not reviewing is pretty stupid - I didn't update my address on PayPal, so it went to my old address and I just haven't been able to retrieve it yet. Hopefully I'll be able to do so and live up to my end of the bargain!

I still intend to post a review. I first read the book on kindle a few months before the review-offer; when I got the autographed book, I gave it to a friend since I didn't need it. But I felt I needed to re-read the book to give it a fair review, and that has taken a while.

9%? Isn't that better than the average percentage of eligible voters voting in primaries in the US? What rate of response were you expecting? Self-selecting populations tend to produce higher rate of response compared to random samplings, and 9% sounds kind of low, but what is this population compared against: professional book reviewers? Paid content providers? Question: what is the perceived value of a discounted book vs. the labor cost of producing a serious review (assuming the majority of participants intended to provide a review in return)? I'll bet there is a dramatic drop off in the perceived value over time.

I am a late reviewer, and will be able to review (accurately) perhaps only by Match or so. I read your blog every few days - and probably read 80% of your posts completely.

The book is of general interest to me, but not something that I would read cover-to-cover quickly only because of the nature of the subject and its appeal to me. I have taken it on all my long flight journeys but I don't travel enough to finish it sooner. On the other hand, if you made this offer, say, with Practical Cryptography, I would have forced myself to read it much faster than I otherwise would have!

Your 9% will be much higher, I think, if you give people more time. Would love to see where we all are after 1 year.

(Late reviews still help with book sales of this nature).

Late reader here, apologies. I felt quite privileged to get a signed copy at a discount so it has made me feel guilty for not getting through it sooner. I'm also interested in how long you chose to wait before posting your preliminary results as an important part of your experiment. I'll try to move through it, but I hope you will post what effect your reminder has had at some point in the future.
Thank you again.

Still halfway through. Grad school is a cruel mistress.